‘Caught’ but do have I to pay?

Discussion in 'General chat' started by Merc? No. BM!, Nov 9, 2019.

  1. isleaiw
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    isleaiw

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    Well I guessed no one else would agree. As for the price, it’s their choice. I wouldn’t eat in a restaurant that charged £40 for a burger, but having entered and ordered, I can’t then say it’s too expensive and I am not paying.

    Clearly signed, you agree you did it, just hand over the £60...
     
  2. Singvogel
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    Singvogel Staff Member Moderator WARLORD Site Supporter

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    Very few private car parks have signage that conforms to the BPA 'industry' regs.

    Nor do most of them comply with local planning regs regards size and illumination at night.

    Then we have the problem regards the wording ......

    And on it goes - they make so much money from the naieve and uninformed who 'hand over the £60' that they feel no need to comply with the rules.

    These PPCs are mainly ex-clampers - very few people supported their actions and eventually they were made illegal.

    Hopefully the new laws that are on their way will tighten up this scammers' paradise.
     
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  3. isleaiw
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    isleaiw

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    Sorry, I thought this was a reputable service station not some back street waste ground...

    And one you start talking about signage then you are looking for excuses not to pay rather than reasons why the charge is unfair...

    The thread asked do I have to pay, in my mind morally he should. You may disagree. That’s cool. I am comfortable with my moral position.
     
  4. Singvogel
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    Singvogel Staff Member Moderator WARLORD Site Supporter

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    MSAs are among the worst culprits - along with the big supermarket chains and business parks.

    Back street waste ground is not a concern for the big PPIs who make millions a year from the public's innocence.
     
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  5. Merc? No. BM!
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    Merc? No. BM! WARLORD Site Supporter

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    @isleaiw Should they be “comfortable with their moral position” too?
     
  6. Merc? No. BM!
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    Merc? No. BM! WARLORD Site Supporter

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    I asked wether I was legally obliged to pay.
    I think we should be careful when referring to morality, this can easily turn into condescension.
     
  7. snrbrtsn
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    snrbrtsn WARLORD

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    Can’t we all get along and respect others opinion ?
    Personally I wouldn’t pay, nor would I contemplate making payment, thats my opinion!
    I’d be hoping Bob would provide his vast knowledge on subject and find a method of avoidance!
     
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    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  8. isleaiw
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    isleaiw

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    I guess if you dont pay you may find out if you legally have to pay....
     
  9. isleaiw
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    isleaiw

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    Well I am not bothered about their moral position but its clearly signed, the punishment is laid out, and you went over time - so I would say, yep they are ok. The charges for overstaying have to be punitive so that its not a cheap meeting place for people who leave one car there all day.

    But we are all entitled to an opinion, and we dont have to have the same one!
     
  10. Merc? No. BM!
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    Merc? No. BM! WARLORD Site Supporter

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    Opinions, great. Condescending, not great.
     
  11. Singvogel
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    Singvogel Staff Member Moderator WARLORD Site Supporter

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    Sorry - but this is what we are fighting against.

    Words matter.

    Firstly, 99.99% of the signs do not comply with the law - never mind the BPA guidlines.

    Secondly, fines, penalties and punishment can only be issued by the police, local councils, and the law courts - not by some ex-clamper thinking up some as hoc idea of what he/she will allow.

    Lets be clear - I am not for one moment advocating abuse of private parking areas - for example people who park all day in a suburban Sainsburys and get a bus into town-centres to work deserve to be given no quarter.

    However that's not the majority of cases.

    Handicapped people who park in any bay when there the disabled bays are full get tickets.

    Mums with a few kids who stay over by 5 minutes get tickets.

    People whose cars overhang the bay markings get tickets - my 3 series for example cannot be parked 'legally' at my local Tesco as it's 'too long'!

    People taking emergency cases to hospital casualty departments get tickets.

    Visitors to residential apartments/flats get tickets for as little as 3 minutes - they go back to their car to display the guest/visitor sign the resident has given then and find the ticketer (who is paid a hefty % of the charge) has beaten them to it.

    People who make a single digit error at a pay & display machine get tickets - they have no success appealing and showing the ticket they paid for.

    People who accidentally display an upside down ticket get a charge ticket.

    People whose ticket or permit has fallen off the windscreen but still visible and readable on the dashboard, floor or car seat get ticketed.

    People who buy a new car and are waiting for a new permit to arrive get ticketed and their appeal is denied.

    People who buy DIY materials get a ticket because they go over the 'limit' loading it into their vehicle.

    A disabled pensioner who parks in an ordinary bay as someone has taken their designated space gets a ticket.

    The overwhelmingly vast majority of these tickets are unfair and if appealed properly using the appropriate template and words will be dropped.

    If these tickets were truly watertight legal and enforceable then almost nobody would win their case against them.

    What happened on the day is almost never the reason a ticket fails - they fail on the legality of the signage and abuse of the timescales for issuing them.
     
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  12. isleaiw
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    isleaiw

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    I would agree, so you asked a question, I gave my opinion which you didn’t like but I am condescending... takes all sorts I suppose!
    All great, do they apply in this case? You are confusing “legally compliant and within millimetres or requirements” versus legible. But I can’t be arsed arguing anymore. Don’t pay. Stay as long as you like anywhere. In fact let’s have anarchy with no rules...
     
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  13. Singvogel
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    Singvogel Staff Member Moderator WARLORD Site Supporter

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    "can’t be arsed arguing anymore" - fair enough.

    I never thought I was involved in an argument any way.
    I've just been stating facts - not opinions - it seems you're the one who doesn't like or accept them.

    You seem to be on your own - good luck - hopefully you;ll never experience what it's like to get a ticket based on greed rather than the law of the land.

    So fair enough - let's leave it at that then - I'm out.

    But if anyone needs help - send me a DM
     
  14. Merc? No. BM!
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    Merc? No. BM! WARLORD Site Supporter

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    I have re-visited the place the other night and tracked the exact same route I took there both by car and on foot and also parked in the same spot.

    The car park is quite dark with some ‘street lights’ being broken.

    The signage is far from clear, there is one easy to miss sign to the side of the road (and could just as well be referring to the adjoining road) approaching the car park / service area, but there is a lot of information mentioning cars, coaches and lorries making it impossible to read the entire message while driving by and there is no room to stop the car there.

    From where my car was parked there we no signs visible and the route taken on foot to the restaurants area doesn’t have any either.

    No signs within the restaurant area either.

    And no signs at the point of exiting the car park. 60EF98B7-34ED-4036-912F-2D90347880DB.jpeg
    I’ve taken several more photos that will hopefully ‘illustrate’ my findings.

    I hadn’t had time yet to decide how to appeal when this morning I already received a letter that the ‘parking charge’ is now £100.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  15. Merc? No. BM!
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    Merc? No. BM! WARLORD Site Supporter

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    Many thanks for your help so far, I’m actually basing my plan of action on the info and links you supplied here!
    I’m happy to message you privately but so that we all here can benefit from it, it would be great to continue this thread I feel. :)
     
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  16. Singvogel
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    Singvogel Staff Member Moderator WARLORD Site Supporter

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    @Merc? No. BM!

    I'm happy to continue with support - but I don't care to have to further justify my contempt for these Private Parking Companies - especially Parking Eye, Smart Parking and the like.

    I'm not a lawyer so I don't pretend to offer legal advice - but suffice to say that those who follow the advice on MSE - to the letter - have a near 100% success rate.

    I take it you have seen this:

    Template appeal for BPA or IPC members - copy this wording into the online appeal box - don't add or delete any of the wording::

    Re PCN number:

    I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence, i.e.:

    - If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

    - If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site or suggest that only one period applies, this will be disregarded as an attempt to mislead. In the absence of evidence, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of twenty minutes (ten on arrival and ten after parking time) in accordance with the official BPA article by Kelvin Reynolds about 'observation periods' on arrival being additional and separate to a 'grace period' at the end.

    - in all cases, you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.

    Formal note:
    Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

    Yours faithfully,


    THE NAME AND POSTAL ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER (OR THE HIRER/LESSEE) GOES HERE.

    THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.

    DO NOT PUT YOUR NAME HERE INSTEAD, IF YOU ARE NOT THE KEEPER/HIRER/LESSEE. YOU ARE NOT HELPING IF YOU DO THIS WRONG BY APPEALING IN THE WRONG NAME!


    DON'T POST IT BY ROYAL MAIL UNLESS YOU HAVE NO OTHER OPTION ON THE PCN. CERTAINLY NOT BY RECORDED DELIVERY - FORGET THAT! - ALWAYS USE THE ONLINE APPEAL PAGE - OR EMAIL IF OFFERED AS AN OPTION ON THE NOTICE - BECAUSE THE APPEAL CANNOT GET LOST AND YOU CAN KEEP PROOF/ A SCREENSHOT. NO NEED TO USE YOUR REAL SIGNATURE IF YOU HAVE NO OTHER APPEAL OPTION BUT POSTAL...BUT OF COURSE YOU PUT YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS!

    You can (carefully!) add a little to the template above, 'in order to resolve the dispute I attach copies of...':

    - the driver's receipts/bank transactions (or Hospital Appointment/Hotel booking, etc.) that day as 'they' were a genuine customer/patient, etc.

    There is also on MSE a sample appeal letter to Welcome Break contained in this thread here:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.co...4&highlight=parking+eye+motorway+service+area
     
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